CHEPSTOW,

NP16 5EX

Monmouthshire,

Great Britain.

Greg@GlanceBack.Demon.co.UK

Hello and welcome to On the Spot with Melanie Dole. This week, Europe, should we be in or out? Now that Wales has devolved power has the argument for Europe changed? As we head, it seems, towards a single currency is it better to be IN Europe and working from within rather than ostracise ourselves and be battling away outside by ourselves? Are we losing our national identity? Are we fed up with the petty bureaucracy that many feel now overshadows our lives. In a moment we will be putting one man "on the spot" who says it’s time to sever all links and get out. But first what do YOU think?

[Members of the public interview in the street lunchtime on a Saturday]

"I don’t think we should go in at all. I think we should stay out here on our own and get on with it. I don’t like metric, I don’t use that silly money they’re on about, this monopoly money. I think we should stay as we are"

"Stay out, because it’s not going to benefit us by any means. I’m 78 and all as I know is feet and inches and pounds, shillings and pence"

"I think we should join; I think it would be for the benefit of the whole country eventually. More manufacturing perhaps back in this country and work. I think it would be much better. And as for the metric, yes, I think it would be a good thing in the long run. I think it is something we are going to have to learn anyway".

"I think we ought to sit back and not be pressurised by Tony’s Blair’s Government into rushing in to Europe at all. I think there’s an awful lot of merit to staying as we are but we need to embrace some of the things that are on offer. Clearly, if we are going to make a full appraisal of it then we don’t really need to pressurised into going into Europe at the moment. I feel that the move towards the Euro is confusing for an awful lot of people, there’s not been enough information imparted to everybody about it….."

"I don’t think we’ve benefited a great deal from the (European) Union. We seem to be a little bit losers you know? I think we would be better to come out of the Union because there are so many rules and regulations that it doesn’t give us the freedom that we used to enjoy".

"Well, I definitely don’t think it’s a good idea we should be part of the European Union. I definitely don’t think we should all come together – I think we should all stay as separate countries….."

"I think we need to stay in it, because you can’t manage on your own and people have got to realise that things are multi-multi national industries; you can’t just be stuck on an island on your own….."

"I don’t think we should be in. Why should we go over to their way, why not come over to ours? I don’t understand metric, I’m too old and I don’t see why we should have their currency. I think we fare alright, we’ve always done OK up until now why, all of a sudden, have we got to be part of that lot over there? I think we’re quite capable of doing our own thing and getting there"

"Leave completely, because we should get ourselves together, get our own people in jobs, in houses and our economy up together before we join anything else….."

Well, if that’s a fair reading of the situation it looks like Tony Blair could be in big trouble at the next Election. Greg Lance-Watkins, who runs a bookshop in Chepstow has no doubts. He believes that Britain is being destroyed by extremists who insist we stay in Europe and that people in Wales are surrendering their country to foreign and alien rule.

I would contend that the British people have been ill-informed all down the line regarding the European Union. I’m very pro-Europe; I’m very opposed to Britains membership of the European Union.

I believe we should withdraw from the European Union as soon as possible and that we should also disassociate ourselves from the corruption, the bureaucracy, the control-freakery, dishonesty and fraud that is totally undemocratic and foreign and alien to the British way of life.

Well some definite views from Greg Lance-Watkins and to oppose those views I am joined today by Jonathan Evans, a Conservative Member of the European Parliament. He believes strongly that our future lies in Europe and that our economy is now dependent on staying in but I think we will hear that he has strong reservations about the Euro. Also with us today is Carl Hadley, who is the Chairman of Wales in Europe and he says that we have to get away from this "island mentality" in Britain if we want to succeed in business and also with us is Huw Richards, President of NFU Cymru with over three quarters of our agricultural exports going to Europe he believes we need to stay in if our farming industry is to survive.

Well, let’s kick this debate open. We heard what the people on the streets of Cardiff said there, they want to get out don’t they.

I didn’t think they want to get out at all. I was listening to a number of those voices and it seemed to me that we are mixing up two issues. The big issue of the day is whether or not Britain will be joining the Eu-ro and I think that needs to be distinguished from Greg’s position which is that we should be out of the European Union altogether. Opinion polls tell us that in the country at the moment maybe three quarters or more of the people of the country do not want to join the Eu-ro and Greg and I would agree in relation to that.

22% have said they do.

Well, I think we can say that 78% don’t so I think that ?? (ware adidem – latin?) and we probably are agreed in relation to that issue. Where I take issue rather with Greg though, is extending that argument into an argument about our membership of the European Union altogether. Now I think that

There were 26% only, in the latest version of Euro Barometers run by the European Union which polled 15,000 people in Britain who wanted to stay in…..only 26%…..

Not according to the polls I see, the polls I see indicate that if we had a choice about remaining in the European Union or not the vote would probably be 2 to 1 in favour of staying in and I agree with that.

OK, well let’s move away from figures as we can manipulate them however we want. Huw, what do you think about it.

One of the interesting things in listening to the interviews in Cardiff was, is that the tendency was, if I was listening properly the older voices there were the ones that were anti-European to an extent. People are still arguing about metric. Well, we went metric 30 years ago and we are sort of trying to go back to that sort of way. I think the fact that Tesco now have just decided to go back to pounds and ounces is merely pandering to something that is of a bygone era rather than moving with the times…..

But they are certainly following the public opinion, aren’t they, which is what Greg is saying?

Yes, but Greg is sort of anti-Euro and anti-European Union Go back to Jonathan’s point. There is a big feeling out there

Being, keeping the pound, I would agree with that to an extent but being anti-European is a questionable one…..

Greg, what d’you think about metric?

I am all in favour of metric because I understand it; I’m all in favour of pounds because I understand them and I’ve got a sort of working knowledge of avoir dupois as well. What I object to totally, is that an honest, little trader whose customers want to purchase from him by the pound or the ounce, who supplies them by the pound or the ounce, is criminalised and liable for a £2,000 fine. This is dictation by a foreign government.

But I think a lot of the problem and it came over from the interviews is that people don’t know what the issues are and one of the best speakers there of that group said "Look, we don’t know what all the facts are and I think with most people, Greg has done a lot of his homework so he believes the conclusions that he’s come to, a lot of other people have got to understand a lot more about what is happening and then they can come to their own conclusions.

But if they don’t understand 20/30 years on, what’s gone wrong. Who’s to blame for that

Well, I think that is a failing of all of us, the Government, the Education system and people like ourselves who are able to put the position over.

I would contend that basically, the British people have the right to commit suicide as a nation; if they are well-informed, they may do so but based on misinformation, lack of information and lack of public discussion politicians have no right to impose euthanasia on Britain ……..

The body language here is brilliant – there was a sign across the table…. Are you going to let him get away with that…

Greg’s ignoring one of the most important points of view which is the economic and we have to keep people working to bring prosperity ….

I don’t believe our country is prostitute just to money..

Of course it’s not money….

But there are more important issues than money…

But you’ve got to have some money … all the other important issues requires some money….

OK – do you want to look at the economics on it? About 11% of our GDP is involved with Europe – only 11%.

Is it that little?

They are not our largest partner….

But 58% of our trade, our world trade which keeps us alive goes through Europe…. No argument

Quite right, you are quite right. 58% goes through Europe into Singapore, China, South Africa via Rotterdam and Amsterdam

Can we, can we get away from….

It’s how to lie with statistics, it’s not true.

Can we get away from the actual numbers and look at what our experience is locally here in Wales. If you look along the M4 corridor you see all the businesses that have been established in Wales in the last 20/30 years and there are companies like Panasonic, Sony, Bosch and so on. These companies have established themselves here and American companies have established themselves in Wales. In fact more American companies establish themselves here than European companies. Why? Because they are selling into and manufacturing into a European market and that is really where I take issue with Greg.

I think we agree…

Let me just finish this point, I think that is has been for Wales, in the transformation of our dependence on the old heavy industries of coal and steel into manufacturing and electronics and so on, it has been crucial to the success of that that we have been members of the European Union but I agree with very many of those voices who say "Now, before we take too much of a further step, let’s stay as we are, see how things are in relation to the Euro, for instance, we are being told that it will be doom and disaster unless we sign up to the Euro, I think it would have been very, very clear that it would have been doom and disaster if we had signed up from the beginning and those people that say we should have been in it immediately, I mean those people I think are economically illiterate. But I am well-known as one of those who argued positively for our continuing relationship in Europe because of what I see all around me in terms of those manufacturing businesses and I don’t it would have been the case if we weren’t in the European Union.

Jonathan I totally agree with you …

So we don’t think that the jobs would have come if we weren’t part of Europe?

Not true….

I’m certainly saying, for my part, looking around the Wales that I’ve known and that I’ve lived in for the last 20/30 years it’s coincided with the period that we’ve been in the European Union and I strongly believe that these two factors are very, very closely connected.

I would agree with Jonathan in that it is a coincidence and I would also agree with Jonathan in that when we had a Referendum we voted to join a European Economic Community known as the Common Market to the man in the street, who was lied to, treasonously, by Edward Heath in that he stated "there will be no essential loss of national sovereignty". Not only was he lying on the floor of the House of Commons, which is a treason, he repeated it, as a treason, in the White Paper and he has admitted he lied intentionally, subsequently.

So are we losing our identity?

That’s one of my concerns if we have a referendum. It look’s like we’ll have a referendum after the next Election on this Euro and the lack of information, mis-information out there is hard to believe because people sort of look at it in some sort of statement they’ve read in some paper, they’ve either listened to Greg hyur make one of his outpourings and have lost the plot completely, we’ve got to be there….

That’s democracy though Huw isn’t it, shouldn’t we have a referendum?

Yeh, OK, but democracy…. It’s easy enough to have democracy when people understand the issues but people, you know, even our politicians, with all due respects to them, come from political angles, and surely this is an either a black or white subject rather than something that can be sort of fostered upon us because of, or according to the colour of the suit you wear…

I don’t think politics matter….

So, do you think the decision should be taken for people, you don’t think there should be a referendum for them?

HR: 
No, no I think the politicians should be understanding the subject and putting it over as far as the next Election is concerned, then we should be, sort of come to a ….

Can I just take issue with that……

So Greg doesn’t understand, is that what you are saying? Greg doesn’t understand either, he shouldn’t have a vote?

Well, he has an extreme view on one side

No, that’s not extreme to believe in your country…

I believe in our country

We believe in our country as well, you can’t suggest we don’t……

Then why are you surrendering it to foreign control..

I would do like all my forefathers fight to the death for my country and I am not surrendering it to foreign control. We are part of Europe….

How do you work that out..?

Greg, we are part of Europe whether we like it or not….

We are global Europeans…

Geographically and trade so we can’t…..

With no commonality of our law structure, no commonality of our measurements, no commonality of our method of democracy……

So we stay isolated forever and we can’t do that in a modern world

I think it’s worth staying isolated forever if we have to surrender Habeas Corpus….

Greg, two hundred years ago you’d have been fine. Whatever you said would have been fine. We were ruling the world, we were Victorians, we were on top of everything. Life is different now.

He’s got a point hasn’t he Greg? Could we survive without Europe Greg?

As the fourth largest economy in the world of course we could survive and I hear this argument about how Britain cannot be a little island over and over again. I don’t believe in England being a little island. I lived abroad for 20 years of my life, literally all over the world, I’m no xenophone….

Huw, you’re shaking your head…

To think that we’re the fourth largest economy is cloud cuckoo land….

Would you like to tell me where we are then?

Yeh, we’re way down the list as far as that is concerned…

We’re the same as Italy, we’re the same size as Italy now ..

May I say that I don’t like the way we’re talking down Britain here. I share with Greg a very great devotion to our opportunities in the UK but I think we’ve got to be a bit realistic here. I was speaking once to the Chairman of the Senate Trade Committee and he was telling me certainly Britain could have a future outside the European Union, it could leave, but the future would be one that would be akin to Hong Kong. People would be expected to work like people in Hong Kong do…….

The Norwegians have no trouble in doing that….

With about three, or four or five jobs. It would be an entirely de-regulated economy and if, in fact, the UK wanted to have that future, it could have a successful economy on that basis, but I’m not at sure that the people in this country would want to have that.

The Norwegians don’t have that problem Jonathan.

JE: 
That’s a small economy.

It still exports 70% of its produce to the European Union on lower tariffs than the British pay, who are members.

It’s on oil, it’s a distorted argument that one.

We are also an oil producer, remember that.

But not to the same extent.

Huw, what about farming, for instance, how important is Europe to you Huw?

Europe is all important as far as farming is concerned because you know there controls are our destiny as far as I’m concerned, to be in it because they decide the Common Agricultural Policy which is……

Which is a disaster….. go on, admit it!

It is not a disaster if it was put in its proper context. It needs to be reformed, certainly it needs to be reformed. I thought there was reform coming last March but by the time the Prime Minister’s got hold of it and took it to Berlin they shook it out once again but certainly we look forward to, you know, in the next year, eighteen months…

I was in an agricultural market in Anglesey on Friday and the best prices that were being paid in the market in Anglesey were for sheep that were going for export that day to the European Market and I have to make the point that if you look at all the difficulties that there have been for farming in the course of more recent years, there is no doubt at all that if we were outside the European Union we would have found it infinitely more difficult to access those markets. Remember, of course, when people start raising the example of the USA, the USA haven’t taken our beef for years and years….

Yes, but France and Germany STILL aren’t taking our beef are they, doesn’t that maybe disprove it?

Yes, and that may be the case, but that’s why, for instance, in our sloganising for the Election we had this campaign "Being in Europe" which I made it clear I believe, but certainly not being "Run by Europe".

Jonathan, that’s dishonest…..

In other words standing up……

Jonathan, that’s dishonest….

It’s not dishonest at all Greg …..

It’s written in one of the Treaties that that’s not possible….

Can I say…. Put the Treaties aside for one moment. What, in fact, I think we have had, in Europe over the course of more recent years, is politicians who were signed up, if you like, to the European vision and for that reason failed to stand up for what are regarded as the Local and British interests and we certainly campaigned on the basis that we would do that and the whole business in relation to getting our beef into France and Germany and holding the French and the Germans to account when they are in breach of European Law, and using the institutions of the European Union to achieve that, that’s something that we must …..

But it’s taking an awful long time Jonathan isn’t it?….

do over the next twelve months….

It’s not working, surely it’s not working?

Jonathan, it’s interesting to hear a Tory MEP speaking like a Frenchman. You said "ignore the Treaties"…. They do all the time, but the Treaties are there and we obey them. If we ignore them we become like France. We prostitute our signature to a document and completely ignore it. The Treaties predicate and no-one should know better than the Tories because they signed most of them, that increasingly it will be a Federal State of Europe, increasingly it will be a "one-entity" Europe, already politicians at Westminster have no say over anything because they are junior to the European Union"

No, at every stage….

They can’t even make law….

No at every Treaty stage it is up to the UK Government to decide whether or not what is contained within the Treaty is something that should be agreed…..

Nice sets that aside in October,

No - no, let me finish – The position that Huw has outlined where he says he is sceptical about whether we should have referenda or not, I actually am a supporter of having referenda on whether or not we should be approving these Treaty changes but make no mistake about it, these decisions are ones just in the hands of bureaucrats in Brussels, they are up to the member state governments, they are up to members of the UK government and part of the approach which you say is dishonest but which I say is entirely central, is to ensure that we are holding Ministers to account whilst at the same time not disregarding the Treaties but making sure that the French and the Germans obey the Treaties, as Melanie says…

That will be the day……

But I think that’s what our job should be, if we are involved in representational politics…

Could I put a hypothesis?

But if we’re outside Europe we’ll be even more hard done by …

We’ll be infinitely better off.

How could we be? We’re still trading with Europe, we’re part of Europe..

Are you saying we wouldn’t be allowed to trade with Europe if we were outside?

We would certainly be at a big disadvantage.

Has anyone told the Americans that – because they’re outside the European Union?

We certainly would be at a disadvantage.

Has anyone told the Norwegian who export 70%?

America has a lot more power than we have….

And do you think they would not line up with us?

and in the end the borders will tighten up on us.

I am all in favour of a European Economic Community. I have a trade agreement with my local newsagent.

which you won’t have.

He delivers newspapers to me and I pay him every so often. That doesn’t mean to say he sleeps with my wife on Wednesdays and runs my business on Thursday.

Carl, are you actually saying that if we’re not in the gang, you know, we’re out it we’re….

You can’t afford to be outside.

Then we just go farther and farther out.

You cannot afford to be outside. With the potential of a market of 350 million

We’re not outside if we leave…

We ignore it at our peril. Certainly there needs to be changes as far as rules is concerned, how these rules are drawn up, but we cannot walk away from it and think that we can ..

Hang on a minute….

We’ve got this island mentality ….

This is so naïve…

And we think that 21 miles of water is the bit that ….

No, don’t be so naïve!

It’s naïve to believe…

Don’t be so naïve, because when you think that 5.7 percent is the average tariff for Britain exporting goods to Europe. The Americans and the Norwegians, who aren’t members of it, pay an average of 3.7% .

And you think that if we were outside Europe that situation would get so much better? I mean, do you think….

Well, it couldn’t get worse could it? It’s costing us £1,800,000 an hour to be a member.

We’re not a country that people take a neutral line on as they do with the Norwegians. We have been too powerful inside Europe for too long and therefore people…

And boy, are we paying for it…

and people would take a strong position. They would take a strong position. And I believe that if we walked out we would be treated quite badly and they would just sit over there and they would do all they wanted with us….

Not as badly as we are being treated now, we are paying £1,800,000 every single hour…

Greg, I have been a UK Minister sitting in a Council for Ministers Meeting now let me tell you something that I suspect you might agree on….

Now he’s pulling rank on me!!

No, I think you might agree about this point. Nothing that happens in the course of those meetings is ever reported. We don’t have the television cameras in, there’s nobody making a record of what is said and I have been engaged in negotiations with Ministers of other countries and let me tell you, you won’t be surprise, it’s not a very pleasant experience. I certainly would not wish to see a situation in which all of those other Ministers within Europe were able to set the grounds rules for trade on our Continent without us being at the table. I believe we need to be at the table, batting hard….

GLW:

Jonathan, hang on a minute…

The point is we haven’t batted hard enough in the past.

I would agree with you ..

We must bat harder in the future.

I would agree with you entirely if we are talking about the European Economic Community, if we are talking about a European Union which is increasingly moving to centralised State Control which is run by diktat and apparatchiks, which is the European Union of today and the future, then I totally disagree with our Membership.

Let’s go back to grass roots a little bit and talk about the public conception of it. It doesn’t matter how many meetings and how many talks are going on, the public, it seems, doesn’t want it, particularly doesn’t want the Euro. What are you going to do about that to convince the public?

Well, I don’t want to convince the public about joining the Euro either. I think what I want to do is to separate though the two issues.

But can you, can you separate the two, they go hand in hand.

No, I think that is a very dangerous think to confuse the two issues. I think that one of the great negatives that there is as well about Europe is the conception that Europe is unaccountable. And the answer to that really is to have people like Greg, with his views, supporting those of us who believe that the European Parliament needs to get more power so that

We can make the Commission more accountable. The fact of the matter at the moment is that the European Parliament has less power than the National Assembly of Wales…

It has none…

We may have a bit of influence, we don’t actually have power, so we need that power to make the European institutions accountable.

Greg, he’s offering you the hand there, to join together forces. Any hopes of that?

Basically we actually agree on many things, but how does he square the circle with Romano Prodi’s comment, not very long ago, which was that "we have the roof on the House of the State of Europe, we are building the walls and the foundations of the building are the Euro." Now, without foundations, Jonathan’s dreamed for "greater European State", will collapse, you need foundations. The economics are the be all and end all. Ask your wife, sometime, Jonathan whether having money puts food on the table, or not having it leaves you hungry.

I’m not dreaming of a Great European edifice. I think that runs contrary to everything that I’ve said. I’m arguing for us to retain our position….

You signed it away, you Tories…

I’m arguing for us to retain our position, at the table, in negotiation in Europe, but I’m also arguing for us to address this democratic deficit that there is at the moment so that we get European institutions to be accountable and the answer to that is that we make the European Parliament more powerful and the Euro-sceptics have always been against that.

What, where the European MEPs are allowed to make …

JE:
 And I very much hope that you will join us in saying we need that accountability because that ultimately is the answer to the

A European Parliament….

concerns of the public. ….

Jonathan, it can’t be….

They see institutions that are not accountable at the moment, they are right in saying that….

And that is reflected in how many people voted in the European elections …

Absolutely so, absolutely…

I totally agree….

But if you’ve got that amount of disinterest how are you going to combat that?

An MEP can only speak for 90 seconds in the Parliament…

Absolutely, so give us more power..

90 seconds and hasn’t a clue what he’s voting on, on seven…??

Give us more power, join with us in ensuring that we get that power.

But Jonathan, you are controlling so many things, ostensibly in that Parliament that you make 720 votes in two hours and 15 minutes, that’s one every twelve seconds, you haven’t a clue what you’re voting for.

Which are invariably on matters of opinion which you and I know ….

The entire Tory Party…..

Come on! As you and I know I have been at the forefront of arguing against this system of voting and you’re smiling because you know that is the case for very many months…

This is very true, the voice in the wilderness

OK, well it’s becoming a two party race here, a two horse race…. Huw….

I would agree with Jonathan’s view point, that the Parliament must be given more powers because for the Commissioners to have powers and for all these Ministers to go over there and upstage or upset the decisions being taken is not good news. If we are going to be part of Europe, it has to be more democratic than it has been in the past and the only way to democratise it…

Twice nothing is nothing..

democratise it is….

How does that fit in in our new Wales where people are now discussing banning fox-hunting. Are you going to be happy that Europe makes the decisions in the future.

Ah, no. As far as that’s concerned it should be decided as far as, it should be decided at Welsh level …

But that’s very different, that’s the opposite of what you’ve just said..

These are all sorts of levels.

the Commissioners won’t decide the fox-hunting issue and our argument is let the Commissioners be accountable to the Parliament. It was ludicrous. When I arrived after the European Election we have the Commissioners who have to be approved by us as Members of the Parliament. What do we get? One minute to ask a question we can’t vote on individual Commissioners.

OK, well actually we’ve only got one minute…

That is a farce….

Talking of one minute, we’ve only got one minute left of the programme so let’s just quickly whizz around and see if anybody’s changed their mind….

and that is Europe….

Huw, what about you? Any agreement with Greg there?

I agree with one or two points he might have brought up but the total concept that we’ve got to be in there but as going back to Jonathan’s slogan in his last Election campaign "In by Europe, in Europe but not run by Europe".

It’s got it’s faults, every organisation, every set-up, whatever we’ve had in history has had its faults, what we’ve got to do is fix those faults and we’ve got to stop any arguments just taking sides, and we’ve got to sort out what’s wrong with Europe and we’ve got to make sure everybody knows about the Euro, fully understands it and then if we have a referendum it’s done from people who knowing knowledge, not from ignorance.

Greg identifies a lot of the warts but the answer actually is for him to join with us in ensuring the Parliamentarians can make the European institutions more accountable but on the subject of "in" or "out" I have no doubt Wales’s interest is in remaining "in".

Greg – last word to you.

I’ve listened to people saying that it needs fixing. Doesn’t there come a point when throwing good money after bad, at the rate of £1,800,000 per hour, sooner or later you have to stop.

OK, well on that note we have to stop. I know you lot would like to continue but that is it for "On the Spot" this week.

  

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